MMO: Before
reading Women & Shame, I only had an abstract idea
about shame and how it functions. I’d always assumed shame
was a moral response — something we feel when we’ve
violated our most deeply held values. But your research suggests
that shame is about who we are rather than what we believe is right
or wrong, and that the experience and transmission of shame depends
on both an external and internal factors. What is shame, and how
does it affect women’s lives?
B
Brown: As
a researcher, one of my greatest challenges was deconstructing shame
— what is it, how do we define it, how does it work and how
does it impact women. The definition of shame emerged from the data
in two parts. The first part is a very broad conceptualization of
shame that is based on the participants’ descriptions and
explanations of shame: Shame is the intensely painful feeling
or experience of believing we are flawed and therefore unworthy
of acceptance and belonging.
The final definition
— the one I use in my work — expands on this first definition
to include a second part, the “why & how” of shame: Shame is the intensely painful feeling or experience of believing
we are flawed and therefore unworthy of acceptance and belonging.
Women often experience shame when they are entangled in a web of
layered, conflicting and competing social-community expectations.
Shame leaves women feeling trapped, powerless and isolated.
Women most often experience
shame as a web of layered, conflicting and competing expectations.
These expectations tell us who we should be, what we should be and
how we should be. At their core, these ideals are products of very
rigid social and community expectations. They present very narrow
interpretations of who women are “supposed to be” based
on demographics (i.e., their gender, race, class, sexual orientation,
age, religious identity) and/or our roles (i.e., a mother, an employee,
a partner, a group member). The expectations are often born in our
larger society, then filtered through our various cultures and communities.
It is important to note that communities are not just determined
by geography. They can be based on race, ethnicity, social class,
group membership, ideology, faith, politics, etc.
Many, if not most, of
the expectations are impossible to meet. They are ideals and myths
that no woman could possibly embody. But more than that, what makes
them even less attainable is the way the layers of expectations
often conflict and compete with one another. The conflicts happen
because the expectations don’t appear out of thin air; they
are imposed and enforced by real people—individuals and/or
groups of individuals. The social-community expectations can be
enforced by our family members, our partners, our friends, co-workers,
our children, helping professionals, membership groups and faith
communities. Many times we even impose these expectations on ourselves.
These social-community
expectations and the way they are enforced by the people in our
lives are, in turn, constantly reinforced by a very powerful media
culture. The media culture is what we see on television, in advertising
and marketing. It’s what we see in movies, what we hear in
music and what we read in newspapers and magazines.
In addition to defining
shame, it was important for me to identify shame’s conceptual
home — in research language we use the term “construct.”
For example, in your question you ask about the possibility of shame
being a “moral construct.” After doing this work, I
propose that shame is a psycho-social-cultural construct. The psychological
component relates to the participants’ emphasis on the emotions,
thoughts and behaviors of self. The social component relates to
the way women experience shame in an inter-personal context that
is inextricably tied to relationships and connection. The cultural
component points to the very prevalent role of cultural expectations
and the relationship between shame and the real or perceived failure
of meeting cultural expectations. Interestingly, across the interviews,
not one participant described experiences or conceptualizations
of shame as something that could be considered exclusively psychological,
social or cultural.
MMO: You’ve
had a longstanding curiosity— both personal and professional—
about the nature of shame and its influence on our lives, but you
write that becoming a mother heightened your commitment to making
a formal study of shame. What was it about the intersection of motherhood
and shame that sharpened your interest?
B
Brown: When
I first started this work, I was reluctant to tell people that motherhood
was the experience that had sealed my commitment to studying shame.
In academics, we are trained to keep our lives very compartmentalized
and certainly to keep the “personal” tucked away and
out of sight. As much as I try to debunk the false separation of
the personal, political and the professional with my students (graduate
students who are 90% female), like most women I still find myself
having to fight that separation expectation everyday.
After informally studying
shame for almost five years, I looked at motherhood through a very
unique lens. I had watched for years as my friends courageously
negotiated what I call mother-shame. There are very rigid expectations,
which are certainly community specific, around motherhood. There
are sets of expectations for every issue you can imagine, ranging
from the big issues of wanting or not wanting children, the appropriate
age to get pregnant, how many children to have, how to negotiate
motherhood with other roles, how to present oneself, how to negotiate
partnerships (including the idea of partner as prerequisite) or
how to deal with infertility, to the everyday issues about what
“good mothers” look like and what “good nurturing”
looks like. To me, motherhood certainly felt like a minefield of
conflicting and competing expectations.
Surprisingly, my awareness
of these expectations combined with the time and energy I had spent
trying to understand shame had, at least partially, prepared me
for motherhood. I was (and still am) vulnerable to mother-shame;
however, I had unexpectedly developed a level of resilience that
really allowed me to approach motherhood from a much calmer and
more authentic place than I had anticipated. Does that mean that
I gracefully traverse the minefield without setting off the big
mother-shame bombs? No way! I stumble into them as often as everyone
else; however, I’m much more likely to recognize what’s
happening and to diffuse the effects by telling my stories and sharing
my experiences with the people in my life who I know will respond
with kindness and empathy.
In the end, this unexpected
shame resilience around motherhood issues motivated me to formally
research shame. At the time I couldn’t explain what I knew
or why it helped. I’ve since learned that understanding shame,
acknowledging our vulnerabilities, developing critical awareness
about the expectations that often drive shame and sharing our stories
are the four essential elements of shame resilience. With shame
resilience, we are far less likely to internalize shame and let
it turn into self-blame or self-loathing.
MMO: You believe it’s important for women to recognize
shame as both a social and personal issue. Why?
B
Brown: What makes shame so powerful is its ability to make us feel trapped,
powerless and isolated. What makes it so dangerous is its ability
to make us feel like we are the only one— different—
on the outside of the group. Many of us actually fall prey to the
same sources of shame as other women, and we experience very similar
reactions. However, due to the isolating and secretive nature of
shame, we feel like it is only happening to us and that we must
hide it at all costs. Shame demands that we hide our “shamed
selves” from others in order to avoid additional shame. But
I’ve learned that when you look at shame and shame-making
experiences in a social context, something amazing happens—
shame turns into collective vulnerability and people realize that
they are not alone.
You can’t look
at shame as strictly a social issue, but if you look at it through
both a social lens and a personal lens, you strip away most of its
power. When we try to understand shame strictly as a “personal
issue” we seek only personal and highly individualized solutions,
which leaves the layers of competing and conflicting expectations
that drive shame intact and unchanged.
MMO: You’ve described shame as an “intensely painful
feeling or experience of believing we are flawed and therefore unworthy
of acceptance and belonging” that makes women feel “trapped,
powerless and isolated.” You argue that shaming is always
counterproductive to healthy personal growth, but note that shame
is used as “a way to try to change people… every minute
of every day.” If shame doesn’t do the things we expect
it to do—in other words, change unwanted behaviors and attitudes— why
is it so pervasive? Does shaming have other social or psychological
functions? Is there a connection between shaming and the desire to
restrict the power of a particular individual or group?
B Brown: This is an extremely important question and I want to answer
it in pieces. In order to understand shame’s complexities,
I need to first explain how shame makes us feel trapped, powerless
and isolated. Once we understand these concepts, it’s easier
to see why shame is so pervasive and how, regardless of intent,
it is very counterproductive to real personal growth and meaningful
change.
In the four years I spent immersed in this research, one of the
most difficult questions to answer was, “What do women’s
shame experiences have in common?” Clearly, what triggers
shame in some of us has no impact on others. What some of us experience
as devastating may feel mildly upsetting for others. Yet, when you
read the descriptions and hear the stories of 200 women, it’s
very clear that there is something central, something core, in everyone’s
experience of shame. For me the primary struggle was to locate and
name what fuels and lies beneath all of these incredibly different
stories.
Here’s what I found. There are no universal shame triggers.
There are no events or situations that make all of us feel or experience
shame. I discovered that there are, however, categories that are
meaningful. Without exception, all of the participants’ shame
experiences fit in one of these categories: identity, appearance,
sexuality, family, motherhood, parenting, health (mental and physical),
aging, religion and a woman’s ability to stand up and speak
out for herself. These are the categories in which women struggle
the most with feelings of shame. Given our personal diversity and
how differently we experience shame, is there a way to explain its
impacts that actually includes all of us and is meaningful for all?
Surprisingly, the answer is yes. When we experience shame we
feel trapped, powerless and isolated.
Regardless of who, what, why or how, when women experience shame
they feel trapped, powerless and isolated. I think it’s safe
to say that each of these concepts is frightening. No one wants
to feel trapped, no one wants to feel powerless and most of us dread
feeling isolated. But if we understand these three concepts as intricately
woven together to create shame, it becomes very clear why shame
is so powerful, complex and difficult to overcome. Let’s look
at each of these concepts:
Trapped: The concept of trapped emerged with two
properties: expectations and options. It’s really about the
ratio of expectations to options. Think about motherhood. There
are hundreds of expectations, but very few realistic options for
meeting those expectations available to us. Being trapped is very
similar to what Marilyn Frye describes as the “double-bind”
– “situations in which options are reduced to a very
few and all of them expose one to penalty, censure or deprivation.”
The concept of being trapped expands the “double-bind”
concept by combining limited and punitive options with layers of
competing expectations to form a complex web that traps women.
Powerless: Given how most of us are socialized
to think about power, I think it’s important to start by defining
the concept. When I talk about power in this book, I mean real power.
The Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines power as “the ability
to act or produce an effect.” Power is basically the ability
to change something if you want to change it. It’s the ability
to make change happen. Real power is not finite—there is plenty
to go around. And the great thing about real power is our ability
to create it. Real power doesn’t force us to take it away
from others—it’s something we create and build with
others. It doesn’t force us to pawn the things that are important
to us—our families, our womanhood, our identities—it
allows us to create those things.
When we talk about shame and powerlessness, we’re really
talking about three specific components of power: consciousness,
choice and change. For women experiencing shame, the ability to
produce an effect that could counter shame is very difficult because
most of us are unconscious of what we’re feeling and why we’re
feeling it. Shame often produces overwhelming and painful feelings
of confusion, fear, anger, judgment and/or the need to escape or
hide from the situation. It’s difficult to identify shame
as the core issue when we’re trying to manage all these very
intense feelings. It would be highly unusual to be in the middle
of a shaming experience and think, “Oh, I’m aware of
what’s happening—this is shame. What are my choices
and how can I change this?” Even when we recognize it, the
silencing and secret nature of shame makes it very difficult for
us to identify and act on the choices that could actually facilitate
change or free us from the shame trap. This is what I mean by powerlessness.
Isolation: Isolation is the product of being trapped
and powerless. When I talk about isolation I don’t mean feeling
lonely or alone. Jean Baker Miller and Irene Stiver, Relational-Cultural
theorists from the Stone Center at Wellesley College, have beautifully
captured the overwhelming nature of isolation. They write, “We
believe that the most terrifying and destructive feeling that a
person can experience is psychological isolation. This is not the
same as being alone. It is a feeling that one is locked out of the
possibility of human connection and of being powerless to change
the situation. In the extreme, psychological isolation can lead
to a sense of hopelessness and desperation. People will do almost
anything to escape this combination of condemned isolation and powerlessness.”
Given how shame often makes us feel trapped, powerless and isolated,
it does not make sense to think of shame as an effective agent for
positive, lasting change. Meaningful, healthy change requires us
to assess both our strengths and limitations. We change from a place
of self-worth, not a place of shame, powerlessness and isolation.
Real change requires awareness, insight and thoughtful decision-making
– these are rarely present when we are experiencing shame.
When we think about “why” we use shame as a change
agent even though it is damaging and its long-term impact can often
be very destructive to both the person being shamed and the person
doing the shaming – parenting serves as a good example. (The
further I got into this work the more convinced I became about the
need to write something on shame and parenting. At first I was going
to write an article, but I have so much data at this point that
I’m working on a book). We can actually use shame to turn
a child’s behavior on a dime. It is both effective and efficient
in the short-term. When we are stressed or run out of parenting
tools, it is easy to turn to shame as a way to stop a behavior or
force a child to comply with a demand. Once we’ve used shame
a couple of times, there appears to be a residual effect. We merely
have to threaten to use it or look as if we are going to use it
and the child complies.
The problem is that the messages we send to the child are often
messages that can follow the child for a lifetime. Shaming is not
like “guilting.” Guilt says: “you’ve done
something bad” or “you’ve made a bad choice.”
Shame says: “you are bad.” There is a big difference
between “you made a mistake” and “you are a mistake.”
Guilt can often inspire us to change a behavior, make amends, apologize
or rethink our priorities. When we feel shame, our self-worth is
so low that there is little possibility for change. Harriet Lerner
writes, “How do we apologize for something we are rather than
something we did?” Additionally, the “residual effect”
is more accurately a “decaying effect.” When we repeatedly
use shame to change people, their self-worth and self-confidence
can slowly erode.
So, the long answer is that shame is used as a change agent all
the time. It’s used in our “here and now” society
because you can actually see a swift behavior change when you use
shame. The consequences, however, are very serious. Shame promotes
change by using fear of rejection, fear of not being accepted and
fear of disconnection. Ultimately, shame is very destructive to
both the person doing the shaming and the person being shamed. When
you talk to 200 women about shame (and now some men as well), you
quickly learn how many of our deepest scars are from being shamed
and many of our most profound regrets can be traced back to experiences
when we shamed others.
MMO: “Mother
guilt”— the self-doubt and anxiety mothers experience
when conflicting social expectations make it impossible to be an
“ideal” worker and an “ideal” mother at
the same time— is now recognized as a cultural phenomenon.
And we’ve all felt embarrassed when we’ve done something
clumsy or thoughtless when other people are around. Is there a relationship
between shame, guilt and embarrassment?
B Brown: I
touched on this in the previous question, but let me go into a little
more detail. We often use the terms shame, guilt and embarrassment
interchangeably. In fact, there are interesting debates about the
relationship between shame, guilt and embarrassment. Some researchers
believe that all three of these emotions are related and represent
varying degrees of the same core emotion. Other researchers believe
that the three are separate, distinct experiences. My research clearly
supports the argument that shame, guilt and embarrassment are three
completely different responses. Here’s how the women in my
study distinguished shame and guilt:
Guilt = I did
something bad.
Shame = I am bad.
Guilt = That was a flawed decision.
Shame = I am flawed.
Guilt = That is a bad
thought.
Shame = I am a bad person
for having that thought.
In the simplest terms,
shame is about who we are, not what we’ve done. Unlike the
paralyzing effects of shame, guilt often prompts us to make amends
or change our behavior. Feeling guilty doesn’t produce the
same feelings of being trapped, powerless and isolated. Women described
“embarrassing situations” as much less serious than
either guilt or shame. Embarrassment is, by definition, something
that is fleeting, often eventually funny and very normal (e.g.,
tripping, misspeaking, etc.). Regardless of how embarrassing a situation
might be, we know (or at least have heard) that it happens to other
people and we know it will go away. On the other hand, shame is
often lasting, devastating and makes us feel very abnormal and alone.
MMO: Shame
seems to be the weapon of choice in the so-called “mommy wars.”
Comments tossed off in casual conversation— such as an at-home
mom declaring “I could never let someone else raise my children,”
or an employed mom remarking “I would go crazy if I had to
spend all day at home with the kids,” or any mother saying
“I’ve never felt (conflicted, ambivalent, depressed,
angry) about being a mother… I guess motherhood is not for
everyone”— are, knowingly or unknowingly, calibrated
to provoke tremendous pain and rage in women who are vulnerable.
It’s always dangerous to generalize, but my sense is that
some mothers self-righteously (or, at least unselfconsciously) demean
other mothers in an effort to avoid coming into contact with their
own vulnerability. Do we wield shame to stop ourselves from feeling
shame? Is shame used to enforce ideology?
B
Brown: Well,
clearly, as your examples demonstrate, shame is an effective and
piercing weapon. This is especially true in high vulnerability areas
like motherhood and parenting. In fact, parenting emerged as one
of the most divisive issues among women. I think there are three
primary reasons that motherhood and parenting are such vulnerable
areas: First, there are so many unattainable and conflicting expectations
that many of us often feel like we are drowning and taking our families
down with us. It is easy to lash out when we are overwhelmed with
feelings of confusion, judgment, fear and anger. Second, most of
us are absolutely committed to doing the best we can, and it is
easy to perceive someone else’s decision to do things differently
as a criticism of our choice rather than seeing it as simply another
path. Just like when we are feeling judged, fearful and angry, feeling
criticized makes it very difficult to respond to someone with empathy
and understanding. Third, and this goes back to your suggestion
that we may use shame to stop shame; we have all developed what
the Relational/Cultural theorists from the Stone Center at Wellesley
call “strategies of disconnection.” Using shame to fight
shame is certainly one of them.
Let me say a little bit
about empathy and strategies of disconnection—both of these
concepts are critically important pieces in building our understanding
of shame. Building shame resilience is about reaching out to others
and building connection. When we do this with people in our support
systems, we often develop relationships that are built on a foundation
of empathy. This is incredibly important because, based on this
research, I found that the opposite of experiencing shame
is experiencing empathy. When we tell our stories or share
an experience with someone and they respond with empathy, most of
our shame loses its power. Expressing empathy or being empathic
is not easy. It requires us to be able to see the world as others
see it, to be non-judgmental, to understand another person’s
feelings and to communicate your understanding of that person’s
feelings (Wiseman, 1996).
When we talk about high
vulnerability areas like motherhood because it is exchanges within
these areas where our hopes of finding connection and empathy are
often dashed and we find ourselves instead feeling attacked, shamed
and disconnected. Many of us have developed strategies for dealing
with shame and our unmet need for empathy. Some of these strategies
are rooted in connection, but many others are what Relational Cultural
theorists call “strategies of disconnection.” Dr. Linda
Hartling uses Karen Horney’s work on moving toward, moving
against and moving away from to outline the strategies of disconnection
we use to deal with shame.
In order to deal with
shame, we have learned to move away by withdrawing, hiding,
silencing ourselves and secret-keeping. We have also learned the
strategy of moving toward. This can be seen when we attempt
to earn connection by appeasing and pleasing. Last, we develop ways
to move against. These include trying to gain power over
others, using shame to fight shame and aggression.
Often, we can find ourselves
engaging in these strategies of disconnection when it comes to the
mommy-wars. If you think about issues like work and motherhood,
labor and delivery options, breastfeeding, disciplining and sleep
strategies, we often stay quiet when we disagree or have alternative
ideas or opinions and/or we say what we think we are supposed to
say in order to not jeopardize our connection with other mothers
and/or sometimes, we use shame in response to our own threatened
feelings.
Unfortunately, these
strategies often move us deeper into shame. It is so important that
we find support systems, even one or two friends or family members
with whom we can share our experiences and know that they will listen
with empathy and understanding. Both reaching out for empathy and
offering empathy are key to building shame resilience.
To answer your question
about how shame can be used to reinforce ideology, I definitely
found evidence of this in my research. In fact, I have two sections
in the book that specifically explore the concepts of “membership”
and what I term, “fundamentalism.” The idea of membership
is very important to us. Shame is often associated with the feeling
of “not belonging” or being rejected from a valued group
or community. I call this type of shame “membership shame.”
Membership shame is not restricted to official clubs or groups with
card-carrying members. Membership shame is based on the desire to
belong to any group, large or small, with whom we want to be associated.
We can desire association because we share the group’s circumstances,
beliefs or values; or, we can desire association because we look
up to the members and want to belong as a way to “be like
them.”
Some of the “membership
groups” identified by women include families, neighborhood
play groups, political affiliation groups, treatment/recovery groups,
sororities, profession-specific groups, faith communities/churches,
identity groups like feminists, liberals, conservatives, fitness/health
groups, intellectuals and mother’s groups. While we resist
being labeled and put in categories, we also find security in belonging
and identifying with a group of like-minded or like-spirited people.
It’s not uncommon
to find that we share a membership category (formal or informal,
spoken or unspoken) with our closest friends. If we are politically
conservative, we might have politically diverse friends; however,
we probably also have a subset of friends or family that share those
political values. Membership in the subset holds importance for
us, especially when we feel criticized or ostracized by people with
different opinions.
Some membership groups
keep group members “in line” by using very fundamentalist
tactics. I define fundamentalist groups as any group espousing a
belief system that holds itself so right and true that it discourages
or even punishes questioning. Although we often associate fundamentalism
with religion, fundamentalist thinking can be seen across all types
of membership groups. While the research participants did talk about
religious fundamentalism, they also gave a wide variety of examples
like motherhood fundamentalism, political fundamentalism, therapy
fundamentalism and parenting fundamentalism. These groups often
support one ideal or one approach to various subjects.
Fundamentalist groups
often provide “ideology-reinforcing” answers to every
imaginable question and reject answers or explanations outside of
the accepted “ideology.” These groups can also encourage
members to be ideologues versus critical thinkers and discourage
questioning by labeling members or threatening them with expulsion
from the group. Unfortunately, shame is often used to threaten members.
Fundamentalist groups can also seem appealing because they often
offer members a place to hide from people who disagree with them
by supplying members ready-made, pre-packaged rebuttals and strategies
for dealing with critics. Fundamentalist groups are often effective
at convincing members that they can’t succeed or survive without
membership in the group.
There are over 100 stories
and examples in the book. One example of “membership”
shame that comes to mind is a woman who spoke about her mother’s
group decision to adopt a specific “sleep strategy”
book:
Every
mom in my play group loves this one guy who writes books about
how to get your baby to sleep through the night and books about
how to discipline your children. I hate his books. I can’t
stand him or his advice. I think he’s terrible and I don’t
like the way these women treat their kids. It’s completely
opposite from what I want to do. The shaming thing is that I don’t
say anything. I don’t agree or disagree when they’re
talking about it. I just walk over to the swing set or pretend
I’m busy doing something. I know if I said something they’d
give me the cold shoulder. This sounds overly-dramatic, but I
know there was one mom who said she thought they were wrong and
she pretty much got kicked out of the play group. That’s
a bigger deal than you think. When you stay home alone with kids,
neighborhood play groups are a big deal.
Membership and belonging
are, unquestionably, an important part of our lives. This is especially
true in high vulnerability areas like motherhood and parenting.
When we feel rejected or even threatened with rejection by a group
we value, we are very vulnerable to shame. If we want to belong
to groups that offer us connection, power and a sense of freedom,
we must choose our groups with some level of acknowledged vulnerability
and critical awareness. We need to understand why group membership
is important to us (acknowledging vulnerability) and how the groups
really work (critical awareness).
MMO: Based
on your research, you conclude that it’s impossible
to get rid of shame or repair it, but we can build resilience to
it by cultivating empathy, discovering and acknowledging the sites
of our personal vulnerability, practicing critical awareness, and
reaching out to others for validation of shared experiences. But
because shame “demands that we hide our ‘shamed selves’
from others in order to avoid additional shame,” doesn’t
shame work against forming the empowering connections we need to
build resilience? How can women get started on developing shame
resilience? What can they expect as they go through the process?
B
Brown: First,
I would say that we can repair shame, or at least repair its effects.
Repairing the effects of shame is very much a part of the healing
process. Developing shame resilience, this ability to move toward
empathy in the face of shame, is not an easy process. If it were,
shame would not be such a prevalent and destructive force in our
lives. As your question suggests, the greatest challenge to developing
shame resilience is the way shame actually makes us less open to
giving or receiving empathy. Shame protects itself by making it
very difficult for us to access its antidote. When we are in shame,
reaching out for empathy feels very dangerous and risky. And, when
we are in shame and someone reaches out to us, it is unlikely that
we will be willing to dig deep and find anything besides fear, anger,
blame and confusion.
The primary purpose of
the book is to help readers explore and define shame and to share
information, ideas and strategies for building shame resilience.
This is not an easy process, and for every strategy there are potential
barriers. But fortunately, the amazing group of women who participated
in the research really talked openly about these barriers and about
how they moved past them and, in some cases, right through them.
If we learn from their wisdom and anticipate those barriers and
understand how they work, the process can be much more effective.
In fact, I think the single most hopeful piece of this work is the
fact that shame resilience can indeed be learned. It is not inherent—it
is about skills and information. Shame resilience is something we
can all work toward and something we can share with other women.
MMO: Do you
think men and women experience shame differently?
B
Brown: I’ve just finished the initial
research pilot on men and shame so I’m not ready to talk in
terms of “findings” or a theory of men and shame. I
will say that I’m starting to believe that we are more alike
than we are different. The purpose of the pilot was to determine
if I would need to develop a new theory of shame resilience or if
the theory that emerged from the study on women and shame would
fit and I could interview around it. I’m still analyzing data;
however, I believe that in almost every important way, the model
fits. While women are faced with a web of many layered, competing
and conflicting expectations, there seems to be one major expectation
for men—do NOT appear weak. There definitely appears to be
a relationship between the perception of weakness and how men experience
shame. While the web is the best metaphor for describing how women
get trapped by shame, I’m starting to see a “very small
box” for men. I’ll keep you posted!
mmo : august
2004 |